JAKARTA, Indonesia 

Former Indonesian Vice President Jusuf Kalla said he is still in constant communication with key figures in Afghanistan, including President Ashraf Ghani and Taliban leaders, to discuss a peaceful solution in the country.

Speaking to Anadolu Agency, Kalla, who is a central figure for peace in several conflicts in Indonesia, said he shared his experience as a peacemaker in the conflicts in Aceh, Poso, and Ambon, with Afghan leaders.

Efforts to find a peaceful solution continue to be carried out by various parties, including Indonesia, following the escalating war between Taliban and Afghan forces as foreign troops withdraw from the war-torn country by Sept. 11.

The Taliban on Thursday claimed to have captured the strategically important city of Ghazni, central Afghanistan, making it 10th provincial capital to fall to the advancing insurgents in the war-ravaged country.

According to the United Nations figure, more than 1,000 people have died over the past month as the Taliban tried to seize government-held cities.
Kalla expressed his views in an interview with Anadolu Agency on Monday at his residence in Jakarta.

Following are excerpts from the interview:

Anadolu Agency: Developments in Afghanistan are now very dynamic. Back in 2019, you received a Taliban delegation here to talk about the possibility of Indonesia being involved in peace efforts there. What's the follow-up?

Jusuf Kalla: Yes, actually, it started with President Ashraf Ghani's visit to Jakarta in 2018, if I'm not mistaken.

During the visit, he invited me for breakfast twice to seek experience on how Indonesia handles conflicts in the country, how to do it.

I explained how we overcame Aceh with power-sharing and also with political solutions. They were given the opportunity to turn armed conflict into a political endeavor.

After that, I invited a delegation from Ghani's government here. Then, I also invited the Taliban in 2019 so that it was equal.

To achieve peace, we must be in the middle. If we want to carry out or assist reconciliation, then as moderators or mediators, we must be really in the middle.

That's why I invited the Afghan government. Then the [Indonesian] government also invited the Taliban here. They all met me.
In that discussion, we said that this solution must be a win-win solution, then power-sharing can be done.

Both have to step back a little, then both go forward so that they meet in peace and precede by a cease-fire.

They listened and they appreciated it. Then I went to Kabul again [on Dec. 23, 2020] and was greeted by the president, vice president, foreign minister, and others.

After meeting in Kabul, I flew to Doha to meet the Taliban [representatives]. There were about 12 people and we talked until late at night.

They basically agreed, in principle, to peace by power-sharing. But on the other hand, the Taliban negotiated with the US, which we know that the result was the US would withdraw [their troops] and left Afghanistan from August to September this year.

Well, that was where it develops. But with the development of America, it turns out that they were going home faster as the war has been going on for 20 years.

Taliban appeared to be in a more aggressive position to take several more towns. But the Afghan government under President Ashraf Ghani still wants to seek or call for cease-fire and peace talks.

Now that is in today's condition. As said earlier this morning [Monday], I still talked to the Afghan ambassador [for Indonesia] about what can be done.

As we know, there are so many countries involved. In this context, Afghanistan and Palestine have similar cases of conflict in which so many countries are involved but have yet to reach peace.

Q: From your experience dealing with several conflicts in Indonesia, can any of these experiences be applied to the peace process in Afghanistan? Considering the complexity and the scale are different.

Kalla: It's still the same, actually, if we want to resolve a conflict regardless of the classification of the conflict, whether it's small, big, domestic, or foreign. In the end, it is how to negotiate peace with power-sharing and shifting from armed conflict to political dialogue.

Like in (Indonesia's westernmost) Aceh (conflict), the closest example, they created political parties, power-sharing, and elections. The one who wins the election will govern. In Aceh, the Free Aceh Movement won, and that's okay.

We talked about that too. I spoke to President Ghani. I have talked to him four times, twice here, twice in Kabul.

They agreed, but what made it difficult was that the Taliban had reached an agreement with the US that it would withdraw the troops], although they also had an agreement that this issue will be resolved peacefully. It was achieved but not done. So, the Taliban still wants to be a conservative group.

The problem is that the Afghan people are already tired. Don't forget that the country used to be very developed, so beautiful with advanced science.

Because of that, they have different views about the government regarding how it handles education, how they treat women, and the government system. They have become a lot different.

The agreement has yet to be reached, so that peace with power-sharing is currently going nowhere. No solution has been achieved.

Q: What is the problem?

Kalla: Because the Taliban still think that its victory is getting closer. It hoped for a strong position because once the US left, the armed forces of each side became different.

The Taliban might become stronger. It doesn't mean that the [Afghan] government is not strong, but with the withdrawal of the US, the Taliban's position has become stronger in the regions. Yes, it is hard to achieve.

Q: The reality is that currently, the Taliban has considerable advance in Afghanistan. Do you think the peace process is still relevant to talk about? Meanwhile, when it comes to power-sharing, it means that sacrifices must be made, like handing over parts of their territory to the Afghan government.

Kalla: I don't think so. Power-sharing does not mean territorial division. Power-sharing means making a cabinet and choose who is the president, prime minister, and the ministers.

It will become a national government that both parties support, which is also the case in the regions. But this has not been achieved, this is difficult to achieve.

Q: Is it difficult to achieve due to the involvement of powerful countries like China and Russia?

Kalla: If we look at the history of Afghanistan, this is also unique. Specifically, let's say in the last 30 years. It was then occupied by the communists. Then Russia, the Soviet Union, came.

The Mujahedeen fought the Soviet Union with the help of the US. America loves weapons. Russia went home as it was unable to solve the problem and back off. Then, the Mujahedeen ruled before the Taliban defeated it.

The Taliban ruled from 1996 until 2001, when US troops arrived. Washington and the Mujahedeen then took down the Taliban, but then it tried to negotiate.

Even though they had fought Russia before, the Taliban then negotiated with the country, also with the US, Iran, Indonesia, and the latest with China.

Those efforts were made because there was the fact that the Taliban wanted to seek legality as these countries have. For the Taliban to be recognized as a government entity. And even if Indonesia was involved, we didn't want to interfere with the country. We just wanted to support peace.

Q: There is no doubt globally that you are one of the leading peacemakers. But if you represent Indonesia, there should be support from the government. Does the government support your move?

Kalla: I'm currently doing it personally and I was invited as a person. President Ashraf Ghani invited me as a person as well as the Taliban. I am not acting on behalf of the government. However, I still reported to Mr. President Joko Widodo and the vice president regarding this matter.

Initially, the government wanted me to be a special envoy for peace. Now, they still trust me even though I don't act on behalf of the government.

Q: When you reported to the president and vice president, how were their responses?

Kalla: Of course, they gave appreciation and provided away.

Q: In the past, the Taliban, apart from meeting you as the vice president at that time, also met with the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI), which was led by Ma'ruf Amin, who is now the Indonesian VP. This means that there is an opportunity that the vice president will follow up on this issue. Is there a chance to get there?

Kalla: Peace has its own art. It can't be solved just by the high position of [certain figures]. But it's also about their trust and how we take care of it.
So, as I said, even though I was no longer in the government, the ambassadors still came asking for my point of view and inviting me.

We also established relations with various institutions and cooperate with each other. I was supposed to go to London earlier this month to speak among some of the world's peace organizations, but it was postponed because of this [pandemic] situation.

I also exchanged my point of view to help them because, basically, the world has always been hoping for peace. Geopolitics is also important. If there is peace, Afghanistan can explore more of its potential as a country that is rich in minerals.

Let say, if the Taliban wins one day, of course, it will need to establish trade and investment relations with other countries so that they will come to Afghanistan even if it has no direct access to the sea.

Q: Earlier, you talked about power-sharing and how to transform armed conflict into a political competition. What do you think can be done by Afghanistan to turn this armed conflict into just a matter of political competition?

Kalla: Of course, each side has its own calculations, and I also think that each of them wants its country to progress. If the war continues, it will not progress.

Now, it's just a matter of how the Taliban provides an understanding that power-sharing is a win-win solution and how they both have the opportunity to lead together for progress.

What is happening today is that the Taliban – as we all know is a conservative Muslim group – want to return to the Islamic system like at the time of Prophet [Muhammad]. But of course, in the current situation, it's not easy to be 100% like that.

Do they want to go back to the time when women were unable to get an education? There are issues regarding women, education, and the law in the government. That is also a fundamental problem.

Both of them have the same goal, wanting to advance the country, but in different ways, one is a conservative way, the other in a moderate way. This is one thing that they couldn't find the middle way, so in the end, it becomes a struggle for power.

Q: If you look at the political constellation in Afghanistan, what is the role of Turkey?

Kalla: Turkey plays an important role in Muslim countries, including Syria, Libya, and Somalia. It's good that it helped them.

I am also good friends with President Erdogan. Every time he came here, he looked for me. We ate together. I have also met him in Turkey and New York.

I understand his desire to help, although the current situation may be different due to the economic situation, which makes it not as easy as before.